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Agreeing with Mother Angelica, Rest In Peace, on no known exceptions to EENS.
Are all VCII and Post-VCII "exceptions" to No Salvation Outside The Church just imaginary?
Lionel Andrades, Friday, April
01, 2016
https://www.catholicamericanthinker.com/
Bishop Robert J. Baker and Raymond Arroyo could clarify if Mother Angelica was correct on the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus since there are no known exceptions in 2016.
Bishop Robert J.Baker is the bishop the diocese of Birmingham in Alabama where EWTN is situated. John Martignoni is the Director of the Office of the New Evangelization and Stewardship in the diocese and is a well known Catholic apologist with a program on EWTN.
John Martignoni has said that 'Zero cases of something are not exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.' In other words we do not know of any explicit exception to all needing to enter the Church for salvation in 2016. This is something obvious. We cannot see any exceptions.
Even for Mother Angelica the founder of EWTN there were no exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. She had posted a list on EWTN of the popes and saints affirming the dogma like the 16th century missionaries. It was not like Pope Benedict in his recent interview with Avvenire.
I have asked John Martignoni if there are any exceptions to EENS mentioned in Vatican Council II for him, since for me there are none. He will not answer. He said there are no known exceptions to the dogma EENS but would not comment on Vatican Council II.
Neither will Bishop Baker or the directors and officials of his diocese offices put forward an answer.
They will not disagree or agree with John Martignoni and Bishop Thomas E. Gullickson who say there are no known exceptions to the dogma EENS.Obviously there are no known exceptions!
For Raymond Arroyo and the speakers on EWTN situated in Alabama, the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance, are exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Even for EWTN 's National Catholic Register correspondents there are known exceptions to the Feeneyite interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. For Mark Shea and Edward Pentin there are known exceptions.
MOTHER ANGELICA'S EENS
Why cannot we all go back to Mother Angelica's understanding of extra ecclesiam nulla salus, as interpreted by the 16th century missionaries? John Martignoni, says there are no known exceptions to the dogma and Bishop Robert Baker does not know of any one today who does not need to be 'card carrying member of the Church', to avoid the fires of Hell. So why cannot we affirm EENS as did Mother Angelica?
DIOCESE CLARIFICATION
The diocese of Birmingham in Alabama and EWTN could officially affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus with no known exceptions in 2016. No one in the diocese knows of any exception.
EXCEPTIONS FOR THE POPE
Pope Benedict has said that 'the dogma has evolved' but we do not know of any exceptions, there is no known salvation outside the Church. Pope Benedict could confirm for EWTN or the diocese of Alabama, that he does not know of any one saved outside the Church, without 'faith and baptism'(AG 7, LG 14). He personally does not know of any one who would be an exception to the 16th century Catholic interpretation of the dogma.
BISHOPS MISTAKE
The liberal bishop who took over EWTN from Mother Angelica possibly told her that LG 16 for example was an exception to her understanding of EENS. In other words LG 16 referred not to an invisible but a visible case. It would have to be somebody personally known, physically known to be an exception. Is there such a person for the present bishop in the diocese of EWTN ?
CONFIRMATION NEEDED
We now know that the liberal bishop who initially took over EWTN, which was being criticized by the National Catholic Reporter, assumed that there were known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. He made an objective mistake we now know. So could Bishop Robert J. Baker confirm this?
RAYMOND ARROYO
He could simply confirm that there are no known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, there are no known cases in 2016 of persons saved without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church. He could confirm that in 2016 we do not know of any person saved with the baptism of desire and blood or in invincible ignorance, without the baptism of water.
He could ask Raymond Arroyo to state his position on this issue.
FOR ME
1. I personally do not know of any such case of someone being saved without the baptism of water
2. No one in the past could have known of any such case. Physically they could not see people in Heaven saved without the baptism of desire etc. Neither could they say that any particular person on earth was saved without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.
3. Those who refer to 'the desirethereof ' (Council of Trent) do not state that these cases were explicit and personally known. It was theologians who interpreted these cases as being explicit. So when a baptism of desire list is presented, for me,there is not a single reference which says that these cases are objective or relevant to EENS. The entire list is irrelevant to EENS. They are not exceptions.
4. No one who issued the Baltimore Catechism knew of a case of some one saved with 'only the desire' and without the baptism of water. So how could they speculate that 'the desire thereof' was a known baptism like the baptism of water? This was irrational. The baptism of water is physical. The baptism of desire is not.
So if any of the speakers on EWTN says there is salvation outside the Church it is speculation. This speculation cannot be posited as being an explicit exception to the dogma on salvation.
AGREE WITH ME
Bishop Baker, Raymond Arroyo and the EWTN speakers and apologists could say for example the following.
1. There are no known cases of someone saved outside the Church past or present and so there are no known exceptions to the dogma as it was known in the 16 th century. This is a rational option.
2. They could say that LG 16,LG 8, NA 2, UR 3 etc refer to invisible and not visible cases. So there is nothing in Vatican Council II to contradict EENS as it was known in the past.
3. The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 made an objective mistake when it assumed that hypothetical cases were objectively known. There are no known cases of the baptism of desire or blood or being saved in invincible ignorance without the baptism of water in 2016.
INVISIBLE OR VISIBLE
As I mentioned in a comment on a post on The Catholic World Report, for me Lumen Gentium 16 refers to an invisible case and so it does not contradict EENS. When there are no exceptions to EENS, the theology is once again traditional and rational.Is it the same for Bishop Robert J. Baker?
To change the dogma EENS is heresy. To reject it is heresy.To interpret Vatican Council II with an irrationality to produce a non traditional result, is heresy. It is not affirming Vatican Council II in line with the dogma EENS. It is changing the dogma EENS, the Nicene Creed and Vatican Council II with an irrational premise (physically seeing people saved in Heaven without the baptism of water) and a non traditional inference (these explicit cases in Heaven or earth are known exceptions to EENS). This is being done on EWTN and in the religious and catechetical departments of the EWTN diocese. Could we have a clarification?
-Lionel Andrades
The local liberal bishop took over EWTN and projected being saved in invincible ignorance (LG 16) as an exception to Mother Angelica's understanding of the dogma on salvation http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/03/the-local-liberal-bishop-took-over-ewtn.html
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SLIMC1 Secularist Liberal Intellectual Media ComplexGESGOEAEOT2 Gradually, Ever So Gradually, Over Eons And Eons Of Time
PEWAG3 Punctuated Equilibrium's Wild-Assed Guess
TTRSTF4 Them There Real Scientifical-Type Fellers
TTRSPTF5 Them There Real Smart Perfesser-Type Fellers
TTRSJTF6 Them There Real Smart Journalistical-Type Fellers
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WDN9 We Don't Know
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HBAACOTE11 Human Beings Are A Cancer On The Earth
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WBESSWG17 Wise, Benign, Elite, Super-Scientific World Governance
TRMITM18 The Reason Man's In This Mess
IYI19 Intellectual Yet Idiotic
TTRSCBTF20 Them There Real Smart Catholic Bishop Type Fellers
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2 Corinthians 10:5
The Serpent’s Gnostic Luciferian Elite Oligarchy and Global Powers Demonic Darkness Over the West and America
Our Age of Malicious Perversion How Truth, Meaning, and Reality Have Been Perverted
Moving Toward Gorbachev’s “World of Communism” It's called the Monster Plot
9/11 Truth This is the real 9/11 Truth: Our “intelligence” agencies are infiltrated.
Gnosis: The Main Expression of Paganized Christianity in the New Age Inner Knowing, Self-Salvation
Doctrines of Demons and the Modern Pagan and Pantheist Antithesis The West's Greatest Threat
Americas’ Spiritually Dead, Deep State and Ruling Class Nihilists Walking Dead Parasitic Idolaters
Pagan-Darwinian-Materialism Redoubt of Miserable Self-Deceived Non-Self Nihilists
Bury The Dead And Move On Fuggedaboutit!
China's Mass Murder Experiment Phase Two
A Top to Bottom Housecleaning of America When we clean our house, my wife has a slogan, “Top to bottom,” meaning you have to target the whole house. The same advice applies to nations.
THE WORLDVIEW OF EVIL SPIRITS - an article by Linda Kimball MAGICAL MYSTERY CHURCH
A Republican Church Committee? Do Pro-American Republicans Even Know Who Frank Church Really Was?
Death of the Christian God in Hearts of All Humans Why America and W. Europe are Committing Suicide
Who Is Intolerant Because Ashamed: Creationists or Evolutionary Theists?
The Biden Doctrine of Demoralization and Defeat By Cliff Kincaid
Luciferian Humanists: Citing the Genesis Account is Evil “Any country grounded in Judaeo-Christian values can’t be overthrown until those roots are cut
Eternal Paradise Or Hell? How And Why Both Choices Are Freely Made… "
The Five Stooges on Capitol Hill They Think We Need Even More Doped No-Hopers In The American Intelligence Community
Luke 21: 29-31: Some Signs Of America’s Abandonment
And Spiritual Bondage
Trump and His Communist Enemies The Demonized Joe McCarthy Turned Out To Be Accurate In Everything He Claimed: Fox News Is Wrong About Him And About Much More
Fox Is the Leading "Trans" Channel There are some rather peculiar goings-on at the Fox News Channel.
Supernatural Genesis 1-11 vs. Pagan Darwinism God and Liberty or Fallen Mankind and Tyranny
Satanism, Communism: What's The Difference? Look To The Roots Of Communism
Evil in the White House In This War, The Enemy Is In The Ranks, Standing Right Next To You
Psychopathy and the Western and American Tyranny of Evil Leftist Progressive Myths
The Next Phase of Obama’s “Permanent Revolution” By Cliff Kincaid
Climate Emergency To Produce a New World Order By Cliff Kincaid
Raising the New Tower-- Occult Evolution: Antediluvian, Babylonian and Modern Expressions
De-Nazification and De-Communization in Russia The The mutual non-aggression Hitler-Stalin Pact, which started World War II, has been carefully “forgotten”
God to Mankind: NOW Do You See the Stupidity, Depravity, and Evil in Your Hearts?
Making Russia Great Again By Cliff Cinkaid
Our Call to Battle: Rise of the Spirit of Antichrist Prayer Article: “And this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” (1 John 4:3)
The Last Hour and the New World Order Prayer
On the "Days Of Rage" Planned For The 2024 Marxocrat Party Convention Some of you just couldn't believe that the formerly Democrat (Confederate) Party had already gone totally Communist before the 1968 Party Convention
The enemies of God, reality, truth, western civilization and our souls Linda Kimbal column
Revisiting Nihilism: The Will Turned Toward Evil and the Destruction of Western and American Civilization
Nihilism…All That Exists is Matter and Energy The Worldview that Caused the Collapse of Christendom and Protestant America
Obama’s New Nazi-Communist Alliance
Moscow Terror Attack is Another KGB Operation to Fool the West
Terrorist Attack in Baltimore By Cliff Kincaid
The presence and influence of powers, principalities, and demons in our age of apostasy into godlessness
Christendom and Protestant America’s Apostasy into Paganism A Timeline
System of Lies: Ideological Paradise on Earth and Why the Bloody, Violent Dream Will Not Die
Prayer Against Wicked Ideologues Rescue us, O Lord!
Trump is a Marked Man By Cliff Kincaid
The evil materialist faith of global Luciferianism, Technocracy, Socialism, and Marxism
Trump is Destroying Reagan's Legacy By Cliff Kincaid
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Never be lukewarm.
Life itself demands passion.
He who is indifferent to God has already forfeited his soul.
He who is indifferent to politics has already forfeited his liberty.
In America, religion is not mere window dressing and citizenship is not a spectator sport. Do not allow our common destiny as a whole people to just happen without your input.
Seek the Truth; find the Way; live the Life; please God, and live forever.
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Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and
Broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in
thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life:
and few there are that find it! Beware of false prophets, who come to you in
the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Jesus
Christ; Matthew 7:13–15
Nito Gnoci
Linda Kimball
The evil materialist faith of global Luciferianism, Technocracy, Socialism, and Marxism
Prayer Against Wicked Ideologues Rescue us, O Lord!
System of Lies: Ideological Paradise on Earth and Why the Bloody, Violent Dream Will Not Die
Christendom and Protestant America’s Apostasy into Paganism A Timeline
The presence and influence of powers, principalities, and demons in our age of apostasy into godlessness
Nihilism…All That Exists is Matter and Energy The Worldview that Caused the Collapse of Christendom and Protestant America
Revisiting Nihilism: The Will Turned Toward Evil and the Destruction of Western and American Civilization
The enemies of God, reality, truth, western civilization and our souls Linda Kimbal column
The Last Hour and the New World Order Prayer
Our Call to Battle: Rise of the Spirit of Antichrist Prayer Article: “And this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” (1 John 4:3)
God to Mankind: NOW Do You See the Stupidity, Depravity, and Evil in Your Hearts?
Raising the New Tower-- Occult Evolution: Antediluvian, Babylonian and Modern Expressions
Psychopathy and the Western and American Tyranny of Evil Leftist Progressive Myths
Supernatural Genesis 1-11 vs. Pagan Darwinism God and Liberty or Fallen Mankind and Tyranny
Luke 21: 29-31: Some Signs Of America's Abandonment And Spiritual Bondage
Eternal Paradise Or Hell? How And Why Both Choices Are Freely Made
Luciferian Humanists: Citing the Genesis Account is Evil "Any country grounded in Judaeo-Christian values can't be overthrown until those roots are cut ... "
Who is intolerant because ashamed: Creationists or Evolutionary Theists?
Death of the Christian God in Hearts of All Humans Why America and W. Europe are Committing Suicide
THE WORLDVIEW OF EVIL SPIRITS - an article by Linda Kimball MAGICAL MYSTERY CHURCH
Pagan-Darwinian-Materialism Redoubt of Miserable Self-Deceived Non-Self Nihilists
Americas' Spiritually Dead, Deep State and Ruling Class Nihilists Walking Dead Parasitic Idolaters
Doctrines of Demons and the Modern Pagan and Pantheist Antithesis The West's Greatest Threat
Gnosis: The Main Expression of Paganized Christianity in the New Age Inner Knowing, Self-Salvation
Our Age of Malicious Perversion How Truth, Meaning, and Reality Have Been Perverted
The Serpent's Gnostic Luciferian Elite Oligarchy and Global Powers Demonic Darkness Over the West and America
The Creation Model Versus Modern Pagan Models
2 Corinthians 10:5
What Kind of God Do You Believe In?
2 Cor. 10:5 Destroying 'scientific' arguments for false Gods
Evil Spirits, Death of God, Satanic Inversion Pagan America's Reality of Madness, Demonic Bondage, and Non-Self
Judgment and Wrath The Biblical Explanation for Madness and Evil
The Worldview of Evil Spirits Revolution, Evolution, Materialism, Nihilism, New World Order, and More
Gnosis The Main Expression of Modern Paganized Christianity
America's Transformation Into A Mystical Pantheist God-State What the Death of God Has Wrought
Message to All Wearied Truthtellers: Let Isaiah Be Your Inspiration the Remnant
The Triune God, Supernatural Heaven, Souls, Hell, and Demons Do They Exist?
Teachings of Demons The Aeon of Horus, Reign of God-Men, and End of the Christian God
Revelation 2:7" ...the closing of a steel door – a solemn, cataclysmic slamming of a door."
Systemic Nihilism: End of the Human Race Eternal Damnation of Human Souls
Infernal Apocalyptic Atmosphere Over America Disintegration into nothing
Global and Ruling Class Criminal Elitists Their Ring of Power and Pact with the Spirit of Death and Hell
Blessed is the Man Who Does Not Listen to Falling Stars Who Follow After Damnable Heresies
Darwinism: An Abomination Aborting and Rotting the Church. The falling away and apostasy from the one true and personal Holy Triune Creator God has not ended
The Evil One and the Impenitent Who Receive His Mark“. And the LORD God formed man (and) breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Genesis 2:7
The Fall of Mankind, the Religion of Evolution, and the Antichrist. "Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall." Proverbs 16:18
Why Secular Liberals Actively Promote Evil. Mentally Retarded Liberals
Cultural Marxism. The Many Hidden Faces of Living Active Communism
The Devil, the Big Bang, Evolution, Extraterrestrials and the Genesis Problem
The Ascension To Power Of Misogyny. Hatred of Women
Gnostic Chiliastic Evolution: Satan's Alternative Plan of Salvation. The Great Reset
Why Proclaiming Jesus Christ the Word Became Flesh is Offensive. The Technocratic Utopian World Order
The Divine Androgyne, Pandemonium, and the Battle for Our Souls. Satan's Rising New World Order
America's Modern Pagan Oligarchy, Aztec Gods, and Human Sacrifice. Isaiah 57 Revisited
The Peace Symbol: Occult Sign Meaning Death Against Christians. Hatred of Jesus Christ and Christianity
Americas’ Spiritually Desolate, Parasitic, Ruling Class Nihilists. Satan and Powers and Principalities
Global Oligarchy, Forces of Darkness, and the Spirit of Antichrist. Forces Darkness Within Church and State
Darwinism: Idol of mind symbolizing hatred of Triune Creator God. And Logical End of America
Is the World a Computer Simulation in the Minds of Robotic Overlords? Magic Science, Transhumanists, Gnostic Physicists.
Your soul: Cost of admission to the Progressive Pagan City of Man. New Egypt, Babylon, Sodom and Gomorrah
Iron Curtain Over American Minds Progressive Marxisms’ Ideological Utopia
Satan’s New World Order Blueprint and Key Strategy. Christian Capitulation To the Serpent's Consensus Process
Chaos, Breakdown, Demoralization, Destruction: America's New Normal. How it came about and where we are going.
Demonic Darkness: America's Invisible Wave of Evil. Staring into the abyss
Cain, Marxism, Leftism and America's ruling class of 'superior' humans. The dragon they have in common
Modernist Christians in a Man-Centered Universe. Scientific Neutrality and Biblical Deconstruction
The Connection Between Baphomet and Why Researchers Are Creating Interspecies Embryos. 2 Corinthians 10:5
Isaiah 57 revisited: America's progressive pagan elites. Staring into the Abyss
Evolutionary Theism Implies That Christ is Wrong About Creation. "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" John 5:46-47
Utopianism. Progressive Utopian Cultural Marxism Poisoning Minds, Churches, Schools, Politics
Acts 17:18-19-modern pagan and pantheist antithesis of the Word of God Ecclesiates 1:9 "What has been is what will be.."
Trotsky's Permanent Revolution From Hell In America. The Soviet System in America
Why Transgenderism Is Being Forced Upon America and Our Children. The Divine Androgyne
The Evil Eye Of Envy: Why Being ‘White’ Is Offensive To Some People. No Vice Worse Than Envy
Absolute Nothingness and Non-Self: The Reigning Worldview of Global Power Elites and Western Ruling Classes
What is Evil? Man-made alternative realities
Cliff Kincaid
Trump is Destroying Reagan's Legacy By Cliff Kincaid
Trump is a Marked Man By Cliff Kincaid
Terrorist Attack in Baltimore By Cliff Kincaid
Moscow Terror Attack is Another KGB Operation to Fool the West
Obama’s New Nazi-Communist Alliance
On the "Days Of Rage" Planned For The 2024 Marxocrat Party Convention Some of you just couldn't believe that the formerly Democrat
(Confederate) Party had already gone totally Communist before the 1968
Party Convention
Making Russia Great Again By Cliff Cinkaid
De-Nazification and De-Communization in Russia The The mutual non-aggression Hitler-Stalin Pact, which started World War II, has been carefully “forgotten”
Climate Emergency To Produce a New World Order By Cliff Kincaid
The Next Phase of Obama’s “Permanent Revolution” By Cliff Kincaid
Evil in the White House In This War, The Enemy Is In The Ranks, Standing Right Next To You
Satanism, Communism: What's The Difference? Look To The Roots Of Communism
Fox Is the Leading "Trans" Channel There are some rather peculiar goings-on at the Fox News Channel.
Trump and His Communist Enemies The Demonized Joe McCarthy Turned Out To Be Accurate In Everything He Claimed: Fox News Is Wrong About Him And About Much More
The Five Stooges on Capitol Hill They Think We Need Even More Doped No-Hopers In The American Intelligence Community
The Biden Doctrine of Demoralization and Defeat By Cliff Kincaid
A Republican Church Committee? Do Pro-American Republicans Even Know Who Frank Church Really Was?
A Top to Bottom Housecleaning of America When we clean our house, my wife has a slogan, “Top to bottom,” meaning you have to target the whole house. The same advice applies to nations.
China's Mass Murder Experiment Phase Two
Bury The Dead And Move On Fuggedaboutit!
9/11 Truth This is the real 9/11 Truth: Our “intelligence” agencies are infiltrated.
Moving Toward Gorbachev’s “World of Communism” It's called the Monster Plot.
The Errors of Russia, the Dupes of Putin, and Another Holocaust Can The Increasingly Faithless Free World Be Saved From Russia?
World War Quietly Conquering A Distracted and Blithely Unaware World. Could it actually be Satan's world war on despised humanity?
Stand With Ukraine Against Russia and China By Cliff Kincaid
Tucker Carlson Carlson Gets His Comeuppance. Tucker's View: It is not moral for us to intervene in support of any nation's (Ukraine's) democratic self-determination and against Soviet military expansion.
The Need for Secure Borders. Have we so easily forgotten what borders are for? Have we forgotten that evil exists in the world? Have we forgotten how to keep apart from this evil?
Can Ukraine Survive Putin and Biden? Can America? Can the Free World? Can Faith in God?
The Soviet Union: Back From The Dead The Return of the Evil Empire
Could an American Surrender be in the offing with Biden at the wheel? Is this not the perfect time for Communism to strike, with Commies now governing America, China and Russia? What would Biden do?
Abortion and Communism. If you ever wondered where all the popular abortion-contraception-sexuality-perversion nuttiness came from, look to Marx's Communist Manifesto.
The Secret Life of Martin Luther King, Jr. A life almost totally at odds with his reputation as a minister of the Gospel.
"We belong to the Church militant; and She is militant because on earth the powers of darkness are ever restless to encompass Her destruction. Not only in the far-off centuries of the early Church, but down through the ages and in this our day, the enemies of God and Christian civilization make bold to attack the Creator's supreme dominion and sacrosanct human rights." --Pope Pius XII
"It is not lawful to take the things of others to give to the poor. It is a sin worthy of punishment, not an act deserving a reward, to give away what belongs to others." --St. Francis of Assisi
Truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.—Winston Churchill
The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.—Ayn Rand
Atheist Genesis:
In the beginning there was nothing, and nothing happened to nothing.And then nothing accidentally exploded and created everything.
And then some bits of everything accidentally encountered other bits of everything and formed some new kinds of everything.
And then some bits of everything accidentally arranged themselves into self-replicating bits of everything.
And then some self-replicating bits of everything accidentally arranged themselves into dinosaurs.
See?
(See The Darwinism Pages)
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